Prof. Itse Sagay is a Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN) and a former chairman of Presidential Advisory Committee on Corruption (PACC). In this interview, he speaks on Nigeria’s democracy, defections and the reason coalition to unseat President Bola Tinubu may not work, among other issues. ANAYO EZUGWU writes

What are your thoughts on Nigeria First Policy?

My view on Nigeria First Policy is that it is already assumed to be in existence by the very fact that in running the state, you’ll need the resources first before we import other resources to maximize the opportunity and also to promote the wealth of businesses of Nigerians, who are going to sell these materials to us, especially when we have exhausted what we have locally, and we can then import.

I always assumed that the policy was always there. I didn’t know that it was probably implied, now they want to positively promote it.

Some people have that belief as well, they thought it was there already, like you know our problem in Nigeria is not lack of laws but implementation. Again, the local manufacturers, will they have the energy to produce locally and remain competitive, considering the high cost of energy and even the cost of finance?

The atmosphere in Nigeria is too hostile to production. I think that needs to be tackled.

I think that if the president is serious about this policy he should provide the enabling environment for these manufacturers, talk about energy, cost of borrowing and all that…

It is true, the cost of production is really too high. Government should look into that.

Some people are concerned that Nigeria is gradually drifting into one-party state. Are you not concerned

I don’t think so. There are lots of opportunities in what is happening. People want to promote their own future. They fear that if they don’t join the ruling party their political future will be bleak.

They are the ones doing this. After this, those that are still remaining will do well. We need to distinguish between politicians and the electorate that is the ordinary Nigerians. You have crossed over but the electorate has not crossed over.

They are still there and will still look at the programmes of the party, look at their records, and will make up their minds. Honestly, I’m not worried about what is happening now. I don’t think we’re going to end up with one party state.

The parties are independent of the ruling party and still have followers. Their popularity and following is not affected by the politicians who are crossing over to the main party. They’re not taking those people there.

A chieftain of the APC in Edo State Collins Eselemo has expressed displeasure with the comment by the Aviation Minister, Festus Keyamo, that Governor Sheriff Oborevwori who just defected to the ruling party is now their leader in Delta State. Do you think there’s going to be crisis?

Naturally there will be conflict because those who have kept the party on the ground and those who have been campaigning for the party and basically have been responsible for the success of the party in that state are going to feel aggrieved.

Our democracy is like a human being, who was born but has stunted growth. It’s not developing… with each new set of people after every election, the quality of politicians is going down

I would have thought before all these crossing over, they would have been briefed and persuaded. Definitely, they ought to have been given some compensations for what they have done, so that they will continue to be relevant and all these need to be done otherwise there will be grievances.

They need to be given positions. They need to be made to continue to be relevant. All these have to be done otherwise there will be grievances.

They should be made to feel relevant even in the new situation, so that it won’t seem as if they’ve been kicked out, left at the periphery, those are the things that need to be done.

These are the people who have done ground work for the party in the last two decades. Their views and aspirations have to be taken into consideration.

The Nigeria Guild of Editors (NGE) and Social and Economic Rights Project (SERAP) held a joint press conference where they asked the President to call his men to order concerning the use of Cybercrime Act to gag the press. In fact, they demanded that the act should be proscribed. What can you say about that?

I thought that the law is meant to check those using the internet to defraud citizens. I mean using the internet in a criminal way. I thought it’s meant to be used against fraudsters.

The ingredients of crime must be spelt out. I don’t know what provision in that act will empower anyone to use it against somebody, who is not guilty of fraud or some other kind of misconduct in operation in internet capacity. I will be very surprised.

The argument is that if they have been using it against fraudsters, we won’t have all these rising cases of financial fraud. There’s also this talk that the National Assembly and the judiciary have failed Nigerians, and that the three arms of government have fused into one, with the executive leading. What are your thoughts?

I’m disappointed with the National Assembly. I’m not too impressed with their performance. They don’t give me the impression of being sufficiently independent.

I can’t say the same thing of the judiciary but for the National Assembly I’m not too impressed with it under the leadership of Godswill Akpabio. It has been a disappointment. They have not shown a sense of independence, which is expected of a National Assembly to have.

Though independence shouldn’t be expended to hostility as it was when Senator Bukola Saraki, who was obviously hostile to the executive. We need the National Assembly to be independent, so that it can act as an objective check on what the executive is doing.

The one that can keep the executive in check within the law, and therefore assist in protecting our democracy. I’m not impressed with Akpabio and his own legislative executive in the way they have been operating. Legislature is the symbol of democracy.

If you look at the Senator Godswill Akpabio and Senator Natasha Akpoti-Udughan saga, some people will say it’s a dent on the image of Nigeria…

It is really embarrassing.

The senator has refused to withdraw her suit on sexual harassment against the President of the Senate…

It’s probably because of the way the matter was handled. Suspending her for six months, what happens to her constituency? You are not thinking about that, it’s just vengeance in their minds.

There should be national interest. You have a large constituency that needs to be represented. It doesn’t show an objective kind of behaviour. It shows a selfish and self-centred organisation that doesn’t consider the people that are supposed to be represented.

Dr. Umar Ardo, the convener, League of Northern Democrats (LND) has said that he will part of the coalition that will remove President Tinubu from power in 2027. Though he is not talking about presidency returning to the North, he is open to having another person from the South but not Tinubu. Do you think it’s feasible considering the enormous power that the incumbent wields?

I don’t think it is easy; incumbent is very powerful. Apart from the single case of Goodluck Jonathan, I can hardly think of any other example in which an incumbent is defeated in the office, when he wants to do a second term. In Nigeria that will be very difficult.

It also looks like former Vice President Atiku Abubakar will be part of that coalition, because he issued a press statement recently, saying he is the most popular politician. What is your thought on that?

You said that the Northern Democrats are saying they want to install a southern president. Atiku is not going to allow that. He is promoting himself.

Definitely Atiku is not going to allow any other person to contest as long as he is there. He is absolutely determined. Nothing can shake him. He is always ready to contest at any point in time. Some people don’t know when to quit.

Should he take a back seat?

Yes! He should take a back seat and operate in an advisory capacity as an elder statesman. One other thing that puts off is the fact that Tinubu, when he was in Action Congress (AC), and Atiku wanted to contest, as a vice president under the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), he was proposing to replace Obasanjo as PDP candidate.

He was vice president for eight years. Obasanjo absolutely refused to give him a chance. It was Tinubu who was heading AC, he invited Atiku to come and run under his party.

What I am trying to say is: That kind of generosity which was shown to him, should have made him say, no, I don’t want to contest against Tinubu. For me, I will feel embarrassed after that generosity to now take a position that I must contest against a person who did me that favour.

That is the way I see it. It will make me not to feel comfortable because to me gratitude is very important. Why should he be a head of state if he has that kind of orientation?

There is also this statement made by the APC National Chairman, Abdullahi Ganduje, that 2027 is a done deal for the party but a lot of Nigerians seem not comfortable with that comment…

Well, that is what all politicians say. The PDP said that when they were in power. They would say, there is no vacancy in Aso Rock. It’s a typical Nigerian behaviour and I don’t think anyone should bother about that.

Adams Oshiomhole, when he was the national chairman of the APC said that anybody who decamps to the APC, his sins would be forgiven.

Some people are saying that the ruling party is using corruption to mobilise members. There is also the speculation that the defection of Governor Oborevwori was arranged by former Governor Ifeanyi Okowa to escape prosecution by the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC).

We need the National Assembly to be independent, so that it can act as an objective check on what the executive is doing. The one that can keep the executive in check within the law.

The APC chieftain, who refused to recognise Oborevwori as leader in Delta State mentioned that Okowa embezzled Delta money and should return the state money. With Okowa joining APC now, it looks like his sins are forgiven just like Oshiomhole said. What are your thoughts on that?

It is very difficult in our circumstance. All these high principles of a detached independent agency that should be blindfolded, and will just pursue its activities regardless of who you are. It is not possible in a third world country.

We have not got there yet. Our leaders are still too touchy about these things. They will look at it, and say oh! So, I appointed you and you are working against me, that kind of sentiment still exists and it takes time.

That takes us to the issue of the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC); there is this suggestion that the president shouldn’t be saddled with the responsibility of appointing the INEC chairman. Where do you stand on this?

This has been on the ground for a long time under the Uwais report, who was the former Chief Justice of Nigeria, who led the committee. He did recommend that. That is definitely the change that we need to make to the constitution of INEC. The INEC chairman should not be appointed by the president but through a process which should not point to any powerful person being responsible. We need that to happen.

There is also the issue of people decamping from their parties and still holding on their positions. People are blaming this on the Supreme Court judgement on the Rivers 27 lawmakers.

You can also see what happened in Delta State where all the lawmakers in the state House of Assembly and all officials at the local government level decamped and they still retained their positions. What is your view? That judgement is wrong because it was not sufficiently analytical.

You said that ordinary declaration is not enough, that they need to be registered with the party consent, that until they are registered, they haven’t crossed over. These people actually swore an affidavit individually that they’re no longer in the PDP, that they have crossed over. When they went to the House, they maintained that they were APC.

What the court should have considered was whether there was no middle way. Even if they have not registered in APC, haven’t they left PDP, and you have sworn an affidavit. What more is necessary to establish that you have left?

There should be a category of people who may not have actually joined the party that they have declared for but are no longer members of their old party. They should still leave the House that is my view. Even if you say they have not joined APC, they are no longer PDP.

They have left PDP. They said that they have left and have gone ahead to swear an affidavit. They are not there again. Even if they’re not APC, they’re not PDP. They’re in a limbo; therefore, their seats should have been declared vacant.

It looks like that judgement is now encouraging people to defect and still maintain their seats with the gale of defections happening now…

Yes, it is.

With all of these, can we say that our democracy is still safe?

Our democracy is at a very young stage but it is not developing. Our democracy is like a human being, who was born but has stunted growth. It’s not developing. In fact, there’s a paper that I wrote 10, 15 years ago.

I said with each new set of politicians under the Fourth Republic, with each new set of people after every election, the quality of politicians is going down, progressively the quality is going down.

The present sets are not of the same quality as the people who started it in 1999. It’s going down progressively and they’re throwing standards, throwing culture, throwing all the beliefs we have a democratic upright standard, overboard.

Everybody is just doing things for himself regardless of standards of morality or any ethical standards that sustain the state on a straight forward path.

Do you think there’s still any hope for our democracy?

Yes. In every situation when you are going down, when you hit the bottom, you will start coming up. I have no doubt that we still have a good future. It may not be immediate but we’re going to rise again.