Ali Ndume is the senator representing Borno South Senatorial District at the National Assembly. In this interview monitored on Arise Television, he speaks on President Donald Trump’s threat to tackle Islamist terrorists in Nigeria and the implications of such move for the country, among other issues, ANAYO EZUGWU reports
President Trump recently said that the Nigerian government is engaged in severe violations of religious freedom, and that Christianity is facing an existential threat in Nigeria. What do you make of that?
Everybody has come out to deny that. However, that is not to say that Christians are not being killed. What we have been saying is that it is not only the Christians that are being killed, Muslims are also being killed. This has been confirmed by both religion, and in fact, other people too.
A lot of people have been killed and a lot of killings are going on in Nigeria for the past 16 years or more. That’s from the Boko Haram insurgency in 2009. Nobody can deny that. But to say that it is only Christians that are being targeted depends on where the incident happens.
If an incident happens in a Plateau or Christian-dominated area, naturally, it is the Christians that will be the victims, as it is now in Benue and Plateau. If you go to other areas that are Muslim-dominated, and it depends on what type of criminality that is going on there, the victims are naturally going to be the Muslims.
And if a church is attacked, of course, the victims will be the Christians of that church. And if a mosque is attacked, it will be the Muslims, basically, that will be the victims. And if, of course, an attack such that happened in a bus station in Nyanya, where over 400 people were killed, then you find all sorts of people being killed because it is indiscriminate. This is what is going on in Nigeria right now.
The Boko Haram, the ISWAP and ISIS are going on there. There are the bandits in the North-West that are killing Muslims, even in mosques, because there are a few churches there. And of course, in Plateau, churches are being attacked, but that is also between the herdsmen, who happen to be Fulanis, and the farmers, who predominantly Christians. So, it is a matter that affects all Nigerians so to say.
So, for Trump to have come out to declare that is against Christians, I can say that it was out of ignorance. And you see, I have been to America myself, an average American is innocently ignorant. You will find an American who grew up in Ohio and he’s never been to Chicago. So, Donald Trump himself does not really know, he’s ignorant about what is happening in Nigeria. And that is where the problem is. I raised this alarm in a motion.
The problem before us is real but if America comes in with a wrong perception, it is going to affect all of us
The motion was titled, ‘The Urgent Need to Correct the Misconception Going On, where American senator wants Nigeria to be reclassified again as Country of Particular Concern (CPC),’ because we have been on that list when Barack Obama was there. But then, we were lifted, and that was when we were struggling to get, when the attack of the insurgents, the terrorists, was at its peak, and we desperately needed air support, and you know, like Tucano, leeway law prevented us from getting that.
And Buhari had to go to Washington, meet with Donald Trump, then convince him, because I remember he told me then that Trump, looked at him in the face and say, you are there and they are killing Christians. What the hell is going on? And you know, Buhari, being a calm person, allowed Trump to vent out, and he said, look, this is not what is going on. I remember that Nigeria’s top government officials had to go even before the International Criminal Court (ICC) to defend Nigeria as to those allegations then.
I remember Simon Lalong was governor of Plateau. He had to go there because there were killings in Plateau too. But surprisingly, when I brought this motion, this government was really more of indifferent about it, and they were treating it with levity, and look at what is going on now. And you remember that this whole problem came out from the American Congress.
That is the same as National Assembly in here, isn’t it? But did you hear National Assembly here doing anything, officially or proactively. When I brought the motion, even the prayers of the motion were stood down, and they said they had set a committee to look at the motion, and look at what has happened now.
U.S. lawmaker, Riley Moore, is warning the Nigerian government not to test the resolve of the U.S. government under Trump. He said they will not allow the gates of hell to prevail against the faithful. That sounds scary, doesn’t it?
Yes, but that’s the American stuff. One thing good about them is, as they said, when they issued these strong warnings, is because they have only heard from one side. They didn’t hear from the other side. And actually, what happened to Christians in Benue State, especially recently, were about 200 people were massacred, and they were buried in a mass grave.
That was gruesome. In my own village in Borno State, our Emir was killed by Boko Haram on the street when he was going to Gombe for the condolence of the Emir of Gombe that died. In my own local government, elders that were reading Koran, 75 of them, were taken to slaughterhouse in my village by Boko Haram, and they were slaughtered one after the other.
Only one of them escaped because the blood of others covered him, but then he fainted, so they thought he’s dead. In my own town, they went to a place just near my father’s house, there’s one Sheikh Baba, he had 20 of his students slaughtered by Boko Haram and they’re all Muslims, elderly people and none of them was less than 60. In fact, we could not bury them.
All we did was to gather their bones because that time Gwoza was not accessible at all. So, if you look at it on the other side, you see the killings going on. Look at the killings going on in the SouthEast; it’s not by the jihadists, it is by the Indigenous People of Biafra (IPOB). And they’re killing who? Christians and Igbos, they are on. So, this kind of madness that is happening, the government is supposed to take drastic steps.
Are you not surprised or perhaps shocked that this is coming from Trump, who prides himself on stopping wars because his tone here is very aggressive?
He said it is going to be swift, vicious and sweet. Trump is used to that kind of a thing and that’s why the leadership of the Nigerian government also will be tested on how it responds to it. I told you what happened between him and late President Buhari and he later came out to say that he respects Buhari.
But this is a serious case, considering the fact that there is a gap between the governments because Canada has joined them, believing what Trump is saying. The UK House of Lords has also been bought into this. We don’t know what is happening in Germany and others.
But you see if you allow a small problem like this to grow up, it can do irreparable damage. So, why don’t you avoid that by taking actions? Look, this thing started in the U.S. Congress and we have a National Assembly here. I told them during the motion that it takes 10 hours to get to U.S. from here and it takes Mr. President a phone call to ask for audience with Trump.
We have reputable international diplomats in the country. I know so many international diplomats that have contacts and can reach out to anybody; former presidents, congressmen and we have the Senate here. We have the Senate president. We have the speaker of the House of Representatives and there are people sitting down there.
The government of Tinubu came in two and a half years ago or so. Do you know that we don’t have ambassadors anywhere? Do you know that we don’t have a representative at the United Nations? I don’t like saying this on television but that’s the only way I can vent out because I don’t have the opportunity to see the President.
The only time, maybe, you want to see the President is to run where he’s going to have an event. And, maybe, if the president sees you, he’ll say, oh Ndume. This is how they run the government but I’m telling you that they don’t have people in there. Do you know why I said they don’t have any people? If you go in anywhere now, out of 10 people, five or six or seven will say this is you.
But you have people, I said before, they say Ndume is being abusive. It’s true that the government is dominated by kakistrocrats. I want to repeat that again, and then kleptocrats. All they are concerned about, if you want to see the president, they will ask you how much. Do you think I will come here and lie? I wrote to them that I want to see the President to discuss some national issues but they were playing game.
In your assessment, how likely is it that Trump is going to do what he’s saying?
He’s going to change his mind but it’s not rhetoric. Don’t take America for granted. Look, the whole world was against Israel. It’s only America that was behind Israel and they won. They brought down Gaza and did all sorts of inhuman treatment. But because America is behind it, they had to wait for Trump to finish addressing the Israelis and went to Egypt to sign the ceasefire agreement. America is not a joke.
How do you think the Nigerian government should now engage with the Americans?
Nigerian government has all opportunities. Number one is in the American democratic system, there is what they call lobbyists. These are people that have contacts with high level officials. These are people who can talk to Donald Trump and he will listen. Donald Trump is surrounded by some influential people like Elon Musk, Bill Gates and all those guys. And even our President with the right buttons and with the personalities that we are blessed with can achieve a lot.
The former Commonwealth Secretary General is respected all over the world. Amb. Babagan Kingibe is known, General Aliyu Gusau is a military intelligence man, who has a lot of contacts worldwide, General Ibrahim Babangida himself is also there. We have so many people in Nigeria who can come in.
These are people that cannot and will not ask for appointment to see Mr. President. Mr. President, for example, should have called them in. He can call an emergency Council of State Meeting, where all our elders will come and then he can pick volunteers and send them out to go and explain these positions.
One thing about American, including Trump, is that they have only heard from one side but if you give them the other side of the story, with facts and figures, they will accept it because truth is constant. In fact, I was saying that instead of being crying out for labeling us a Country of Particular Concern, we should ask America to brand us as a Country of Special Concern, so that they can give us what is needed in order to end this criminality by terrorists.
Beyond just the issue of whether Christians are being killed or not, the spotlight is on Nigeria. Is this an opportunity for Nigeria to acknowledge historical wrongs in this country, not just against Christians, but against ethnic groups and minorities?
That is what I see. If you accept that you have a problem, you should in fact, magnify the problem. Now, the problem seems to be narrow; that it is only the Christians who are being targeted. So, it is time we open up to say, no, the genocide, as you call it, is against the poor and middle-income people. There’s oppression against Christians and poor Muslims.
I’m in a very good position to agree or disagree with this. I think I told you that my family is half Christians and half Muslims. I have relatives who are Christians. In Borno South where I come from, you have Christians but the other zones – Borno Central and Borno North – are predominantly Muslims. And let me tell you, these two zones that I mentioned to you in Borno State are mostly affected by the Boko Haram insurgency.
In my senatorial district, the two local governments that are severely affected are my local government and then there’s another local government called Damboa. It’s predominantly Muslim too but most affected by the Boko Haram insurgency. And in my own case, as I said, we have some good number of Christians in my local government.
Recently two areas were affected, Kirawa, as you must have learned recently, about 5,000 Muslims were displaced. And in another local government, Uba, youths were attacked in their farms. Five people were killed and all of them are Christians. So, I want to say this again although many people have said it. I think we are running on emotions instead of reality. The problem before us is real but if America comes in with a wrong perception, it is going to affect all of us. And that will give more advantage to the terrorists and bandits because their source is illegitimate source.
In Nigeria, we don’t even manufacture bullets as it is now. All of what we are going to use will have to come from other countries, with maybe, aids and all that. If all of these are cut off, that means the terrorists and others will have an upper hand.
And I’m wondering that even the Americans, if they want to attack my local government, are they going to ask the Christians to stand aside or how are they going to do it. In my family that has Christians and Muslims; are you going to tell me that my brothers and sisters would be attacked?
