Aminu Tambuwal is the Senator representing Sokoto South Senatorial District and a former governor of Sokoto State. In this interview, monitored on Channels Television, he speaks on harassment and intimidation of opposition leaders, formation of coalition under the African Democratic Congress (ADC), and why he will always support the presidential ambition of Atiku Abubakar, among other issues. ANAYO EZUGWU writes

Why did you and your colleagues go ahead and hold the recent meeting in Kaduna when there are possibilities of violence and even when the police warned that it should not take place?

Let me start straight up by making reference to the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, which is the grundnorm, particularly section 39.1 and section 40. These provisions clearly provided for freedom of expression of citizens.

And of course, section 40 clearly speaks and provide for freedom of assembly and gathering of individuals. And in most of the cases or most of the times, the police try to hide under the Public Order Act, which its provisions are inconsistent with the provisions of the constitution to come hard on individuals or groups that try to come together to associate or to meet.

In the instant case, first, you need to understand that there is no need for permit from the police for a political party to have a meeting. Even when you write to the police, you notify the police.

In most cases, it has to do with political rallies. And the whole idea is for the police to provide security at the rallies and to guide political parties not to have clashes on particular days and times and for them to meet at particular venues. It’s just for guidance and not for the police to say, you cannot meet and you can meet.

You are a lawyer, so you understand that it’s within the right of the group, especially when the police were warning about the possibility of tension and clashes in a politically tensed atmosphere. Is it still right as a law-abiding citizen to still go ahead?

You see, it wasn’t a rally. We were there on a commiseration visit as members of the coalition to the leaders of the coalition in Kaduna State, who were attacked by thugs. We were not there for a meeting. We were there just to commiserate with the leaders in Kaduna. And we did exactly that and came out and there wasn’t anything that happened. So that was a misreading of the situation by the police.

Do you think that those who have been invited should really go and meet the police and explain what- ever the issue is?

I am a lawyer of about 32 years standing. I’m a life bencher. I had been a member of parliament for 12 years before, and now two years in the Senate.

I’m a law-abiding citizen of this country. Whoever is invited by a constitutional authority should appear. I would advise my brother and friend Nasir El-Rufai to honour the invitation by the police. It’s an invitation. If I am invited today by the police on an investigation, I will appear.

The interpretation and reading of meaning into the invitation, is completely a different ball game altogether. The times are interesting, so the police need to be very circumspect going forward. I can’t say that they are wrong with the invitation but they need to be more circumspect.

Do you think the government of the day has been fair to opposition?

Well, you see, we live in this country. We’re all sensible. When you look at what’s happening in various political parties in Nigeria today, you don’t need to be told, no matter the amount of denial by anybody, including President Bola Tinubu that they are not involved in destabilization efforts of opposition parties. It’s not correct. I am not accusing them.

I am saying that they are involved in efforts aimed at destabilizing opposition parties. I am saying that they are involved in destabilization efforts. You have heard me loud and clear, I said, I am saying, I’m not suspecting that they are involved in all of this.

I am shocked that under Tinubu’s watch, Nigeria is being run the way it is being run today. But I cannot say I’m disappointed because I campaigned against him

The signs are very clear that we are driving and drifting towards an authoritarian society. And they are very ominous. The signs are very clear that the people in charge of our government today in Nigeria are interested in a one-party state. It may not work. It’s not in the interest of democracy. It’s not in theinterest of Nigeria but that is the path they are pursuing.

Is that the Tinubu that you know?

Well, from my knowledge of him, when we collaborated and worked together for democracy, he was a different person. If I must say it, the way I see it, I am shocked that under Tinubu’s watch, Nigeria is being run the way it is being run today.

But I cannot say I’m disappointed because I campaigned against him. I went around throughout the nooks and crannies of Nigeria and told Nigerians to be wary of voting for Bola Tinubu and the All Progressives Congress (APC) in 2023.

I was the Director General of the Atiku Abubakar campaign and we went round the country and warned Nigerians against voting for Tinubu and his party. So, I cannot say that I’m disappointed. That’s why I said, yes, he is appearing to be different from what I used to know of him in the past when we collaborated.

And you were in the same party before…

was in the same party with him, but I left. I saw the way APC was driving Nigeria to where it is today, as far back as in 2018, and I left in August 2018. Even some of my colleagues then; about six governors came to appeal to me to remain in APC.

I called them individually after my consultation. I said that I have not seen any clear direction, even if President Muhammadu Buhari of the blessed memory comes back, that things will get better. I would rather pull out of APC and allow you to go.

Their concern was even whether I was going to win the election to return as governor of Sokoto. I said if that is the will of God, so be it. But I better stand out to be counted as having opposed what is going on than to continue and return as governor of Sokoto State for a second time.

Your former political allies and friends are now your political opponents, including those who have helped you politically. Tinubu on one hand and Nyesom Wike on the other hand, It must be a tough one for you, isn’t it?

It’s collaboration. It’s not anything tough once it is about the country; once it is about being altruistic and nothing personal. You have never had me taking personally about Tinubu. You also have never had me taking personally about Wike.

We disagreed in principle on the way the directions of things are going. I had no problem personally with President Goodluck Jonathan but we disagreed and I left the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) for APC. And when I presided over the House of Representatives, we had our back and forth on so many policy issues. It wasn’t personal.

But when it mattered the most, there are those who say Tambuwal left his friends. Why does it look like that at the very nick of the time, when some of your friends need you the most, you leave them?

It’s not about my friendship with you. If today, and I’m saying this with every sense of responsibility, Vice President Atiku Abubakar comes in here and Nyesom Wike comes in here and requests my phone, which is personal to me, I will personally give it to Wike as a personal friend.

But when it comes to leadership of this country and leadership of the people, tomorrow, not even today, I will rather support Atiku than Wike. It’s nothing personal. It’s about this country and we are seeing it clearly.

So, you don’t regret betraying Wike at the presidential primary election?

I have never betrayed anybody because it’s only when you have an understanding with someone and you go against that understanding that you betray him. I was also running and he met me in the race.

I was running for president of Nigeria and I have been in contention since 2012 and 2013. My friend, Wike was not in contention then. I remained in contention and in the political calculus of Nigeria for presidency of Nigeria since then. He decided to join in 2022.

So, who met who in the race? He gave me the indication, if I’m honest with you, but he met me there and he knew that I was running. It’s not impersonal. It’s not political. Betrayal is when you have an understanding and you go against the understanding.

At that time, I knew that I would rather go with Atiku than pitch my tent with Wike. It wasn’t a betrayal; it’s about the interest, and I am maintaining my position that even tomorrow, I would rather support Atiku to be president of Nigeria than support Wike. But if it is something personal, I will do with Wike.

Wike at the presidential primary election?

I have never betrayed anybody because it’s only when you have an understanding with someone and you go against that understanding that you betray him. I was also running and he met me in the race. I was running for president of Nigeria and I have been in contention since 2012 and 2013. My friend, Wike was not in contention then.

I remained in contention and in the political calculus of Nigeria for presidency of Nigeria since then. He decided to join in 2022. So, who met who in the race?

He gave me the indication, if I’m honest with you, but he met me there and he knew that I was running. It’s not impersonal. It’s not political. Betrayal is when you have an understanding and you go against the understanding.

At that time, I knew that I would rather go with Atiku than pitch my tent with Wike. It wasn’t a betrayal; it’s about the interest, and I am maintaining my position that even tomorrow, I would rather support Atiku to be president of Nigeria than support Wike. But if it is something personal, I will do with WikeDo you think that you owe Tinubu for helping you to become the speaker of the House of Representatives?

He supported me to become speaker. Let me tell you; we engaged with Tinubu then about three or four times. He had initially given indication for the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN) caucus to support Mulikat Akande-Adeola.

But I went to engage him over time and we ran the numbers. He saw it clearly. He is a political strategist; he saw it clearly that I was going to win.

So, he was convinced that instead of him to support Mulikat that may end up not winning, he would rather support me. Subtract the votes of ACN, all of them, about 50 something of them from my votes and add that to Mulikat, I would have still won. Do the mathematics, I would have still won but that’s not to say he didn’t support me..

Do you think that you owe Tinubu for helping you to become the speaker of the House of Representatives?

He supported me to become speaker. Let me tell you; we engaged with Tinubu then about three or four times.

He had initially given indication for the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN) caucus to support Mulikat Akande-Adeola. But I went to engage him over time and we ran the numbers. He saw it clearly.

He is a political strategist; he saw it clearly that I was going to win. So, he was convinced that instead of him to support Mulikat that may end up not winning, he would rather support me.

Subtract the votes of ACN, all of them, about 50 something of them from my votes and add that to Mulikat, I would have still won. Do the mathematics, I would have still won but that’s not to say he didn’t support me.

Even against your party, the alliances that Tinubu struck for you was very significant, so there are those who say, maybe, you could have paid him back with some goodwill…

You have Atiku running; you have Tinubu running, I will not support Tinubu.

If Atiku is not running and it is Tinubu against Peter Obi for example, would you support him?

When that situation presents itself, I’ll make my own position clear.

Are you still planning to run for president?

Not at this moment.

The PDP has said it loud and clear that it is zoning the presidential ticket to the South. In all of these calculations, do you think that Atiku should still run?

There’s also an argument that since civilian rule returned to Nigeria in1999; if you add the eight years of Olusegun Obasanjo to five years of Goodluck Jonathan, it will give you 13 years.

This plus four years of Tinubu will give you 17 years for the South. For the North; add eight years of President Muhammadu Buhari to two years of Umaru Musa Yar’Adua, that’s 10 years.

How do you think that Atiku is better than Tinubu?

In many ways; in understanding the dynamics of how to run the government itself and the federal system because Tinubu had always been confined to his locality in the local environment of Lagos, with due respect. He had never been a federal operator.

He doesn’t understand the federal system. Look at it; up till now, we don’t have ambassadors more two years of Tinubu’s administration. What does that tell you?

It was Jonathan, who was described by the opposition as clueless. But the way you are talking right now, they say Tinubu is not Jonathan…

Well, they say Tinubu is not Jonathan in terms of political vacillations not only governance. Tinubu lacks the knowledge of Nigeria as a country. He lacks the knowledge of how even the fabric that the Nigerian federation is made of.

I’ve heard all the things his people are saying he has done in the currency market, student loans and agriculture but as we speak now, in my senatorial district, bandits have almost taken over virtually every local government. Before I left as governor, it wasn’t like that.

Every effort to make Tinubu look invisible and that he cannot be defeated is rubbish. He can be defeated and I believe so, and I’m working along with the coalition leaders to achieve that objective in the interest of the country

The situation in Sokoto South and Sokoto East is increasingly getting worse. Lakurawa is there and also the bandits. Most of the villages have been evacuated. People have run out of their places. It is the same thing in many local government areas. The youth leader of PDP in my local government has been kidnapped. Bodinga, Tangaza, Tureta and Dange Shuni local government areas are affected as we speak.

And when you are talking about governance, the number one priority of any government is security of lives and welfare of the people.

This government cannot say that they are doing that because I know what is going on in my constituency. My job is to draw the attention of the security forces to this and to collaborate with them, and I’m doing that.

Who are these people terrorizing Nigeria, do we know them?

I don’t know them. I believe that they are bandits. Unless you are able to do a simultaneous operation, go down the areas and face these people, if you do what you are doing now, then you just disperse them into other states.

Why has it been difficult to be able to make a strong policy on state police, so that we can have somewhat of a permanent end to this scourge?

Most people are concerned about state police because of misuse but I support the idea of state police. Yes, we have federal police but part of the problem is that you post someone from, let’s say, Sokoto to Enugu. He doesn’t understand the terrain. He doesn’t understand the language. But if you have state police, they will collaborate and work together.

There may be synergy and they can work together to ensure security. And in any case, the federal police are underfunded and we don’t have enough personnel in the police. So, we need more recruitment, more boots on the ground, both in the police and in the army. I was governor of Sokoto State for eight years. I was confronted with security challenges but not to the magnitude in Zamfara State.

I provided vehicles to the police and the general security apparatus; over 600 vehicles. We were also giving them monthly allowances. And whenever they’re doing any special clearance operation, we support them.

But it is very frustrating when a governor cannot give instructions to either the commissioner of police or the brigade commander until he clears from the centre. That is the reality of the situation and I’m not surprised the way the governor of Zamfara State spoke because it is out of frustration and that is the reality on ground.

I’m not holding brief for the governors but that is their situation. That is why I support the idea of state police. I have attended courses abroad and I have seen how things work and I hope that one day, that would be our situation in Nigeria. You see, you need to recruit more into the Nigeria security system; more personnel, more boots on the ground and more of empowering them with the right tools of work.

Their welfare is also key. When a soldier, a police officer or DSS personnel is killed on the battlefield, what happens to his or her family? The welfare scheme should go beyond their immediate self, it should cover also what happens to their families. When you get things right and with the right team, we can confront the security situation.

Why did you withdraw such amount of money in cash which was the reason the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) invited you in the first place?

It is not true that I withdrew N189 billion in seven years.

That means our government was withdrawing N250 million every month. Where are the resources, how much was the allocation coming to Sokoto and how much were we paying salaries, pensions and gratuities? Up till the time I left office, we weren’t owing any civil servant any salary and we were paying pension as and when due.

So, were did we get the resources to withdraw such cash? You see, this matter is still under investigation and I’m going back to EFCC any time in the coming week, so I don’t want to discuss it on national television. Let us continue with the investigation and see how far they can prove that allegation.

You said the investigation was politically induced; who are those after you?

Those who are concerned and worried about my activities because I’m fully involved in the democratic process, and lawfully, that will end by the grace of God in sending this government out of office. I’m 100 per cent committed to it, and with the help of God and Nigerians, we will send these people out of office.

Is it northern elites that are coming together to send President Tinubu out of office?

It is a national consensus because Peter Obi is not from Northern Nigeria. Is Rauf Aregbesola not from Osun State? Are they not part of the coalition?

It is true that some Nigerians are not happy with this government because I’m not speaking for Northern Nigeria. I’m not involved in coming together of the North to say that Tinubu must go, I am involved in a national coalition that there should a change of guard in Aso Rock through a constitutional democratic process on May 29, 2027.

You know the political capacity of President Tinubu because he has never lost an election. Do you think 2027 will be an exception?

He lost in Lagos and Osun in 2023. What I’m saying is that you cannot say he has never lost an election because he lost his primary constituency of Lagos and it is not cast on stone that he will not lose in 2027.

Every effort to make Tinubu look invisible and that he cannot be defeated is rubbish. He can be defeated and I believe so, and I’m working along with the coalition leaders to achieve that objective in the interest of the country. It is not about Tinubu but about the way and manner he is running the country.