Prof. Bolaji Akinyemi is a former Minister of Foreign Affairs. In this interview monitored on Arise Television, he speaks on the claim by U.S. congressman that the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) funded terrorist organisations, including Boko Haram in order to destabilise Nigeria. ANAYO EZUGWU writes

What is your comment on the allegation that USAID funds were used to fund Boko Haram in Nigeria?

I listened to you earlier and you say you want facts because you are not buying into this narrative about USAID funding Boko Haram. Well, I’d like to give you some facts. I served on the Boko Haram Committee. Now, two plus two at times has to be equal to four. So, even if I can’t give you four, but I can give you two plus two, we would then have to conclude that I’m giving you four.

I served on that committee, and villagers kept telling us that in the middle of the night, helicopters piloted by white people, kept landing and offloading guns, goods and all kinds of things, and money to these people.

Now, villagers don’t even know who these white people are, and they have no reason to lie to us. Now, we made a mistake. When I said we, some of us on the Boko Haram Committee made a mistake.

We thought it was the French that were doing this. Now, we have an American congressman who said, no, it was the Americans who were doing this. Then add that to the Barack Obama administration refusing to sell weapons to Nigeria because we had human rights violations in the way we were dealing with Boko Haram, not in the way we were dealing with ordinary Nigerians where there were no security issues.

We got a plane that was going to go and buy weapons in South Africa; someone tipped off the South Africans. It wasn’t a Nigerian who tipped off the South Africans. Who tipped off the South Africans? You have to conclude that it has to be a power that had access to information and that was able to do that.

Did the villagers identify the people dropping the weapons as Americans and did the villagers also tell you that they spoke English?

I have said so. I said the villagers knew these were white people. And I said we, who were on that committee, made the mistake of thinking they were French. But now, it is an American congressman who’s telling us that it was the Americans who did this. And you’re asking me whether the villagers told us if they were Americans. The villagers who didn’t know French from Americans or from British, just knew that these were white people.

And they not only did that, they also penetrated our armed forces because behind the scenes, our boys would tell us that there were times when they would have Boko Haram people in the sight of their guns. And they will now ask their headquarters for permission to open fire only for their superior officers to tell them to pull back and not open fire.

That shows the extent to which there was penetration and destabilization of our security forces. Now, who would do this? Who would destabilize our security forces? There were Nigerians also who were involved. And this is where I’m going to be careful. I’m not going to mention names but people were leading delegations to the United States during this period.

Our ambassador them, unfortunately, is dead now, but he wrote reports about the activities of these Nigerians, some of them governors, who were involved with the State Department, and who were also involved with the White House and what they were doing.

Now, who were the people who organised trips for Hillary Clinton and John Kerry, who would ignore Abuja and fly over Abuja to go and hold meetings with political operatives in some parts of Nigeria without clearance with our own Aso Rock and our own foreign office?

Who are those Nigerians and what did that report say about them and what they were doing in the White House and why did that report not come to light?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m just a Nigerian, just like you. Now, if you take the newspapers during the period when President Goodluck Jonathan was in power, you will find the names and pictures of Nigerians in high places, who were visiting Washington, pictures taken in the White House and in the State Department. You will find those pictures.

They are not hidden. I cannot now go and look for those newspapers and hold up the newspapers. But those pictures are there. And in any case, if you Google Nigerians visiting Washington, they are not unknown people or governors.

Some of them are in the Senate. Some of them are even those who occupied higher offices and were visiting Washington. Those pictures are available, so they are not top secrets. If I’m going to write a piece, then I will go and look for those pictures and look for those reports.

In a recent interview, the Chief of Defence Staff said that they believe that there was some complicity with some international organisations, but in the event that USAID is found to have funded Boko Haram, what would be the next steps and what are the options for Nigeria?

In this murky world of intelligence, the Secret Service and what have you will never get the proof unless documents are declassified. That’s what is called deepstate operations. All I can tell you is that when I was serving on that Boko Haram Committee, there were things we were told, which I even found alarming. But as I said, my focus was on the French because it is the French that have had this tradition of trying to destabilize Nigeria. Dollars were found on these Boko Haram people.

There was an episode where a helicopter crashed in one of these northern states and it was plenty of dollars that were scattered all over the place. Now, that doesn’t mean that it was Americans who were on that plane, because there are so many organisations that use the dollar.

And I would not be surprised if various security or intelligence organisations or people who are involved in all these dark-shade operations will use the dollar to cover their tracks and so on. That’s why I didn’t jump into conclusion immediately that it’s the Americans who were up to this until this congressman said it.

Now, if I’m not going to believe the congressman about operations, and this is a congressman who has access to their data, he may have his motive for what he’s saying and for what he’s doing but if I’m not going to believe him, and on the grounds of that identity, we then end up with, we don’t know. Well, if we don’t know, then who do we believe? Even when we see documents that are declassified, how are we even sure that whoever wrote those documents is telling the truth?

You see, we are not going to get 100 per cent certainty when you are dealing with intelligence operatives and what they are putting down on paper because some are meant to cover their tracks, while some are meant to implicate others.

As regards to your question: What do we do now? Believe me, and this is the most depressing part of this. There is nothing we can do. You are dealing with a superpower whose tentacles spread all over the world.

When I was serving on that Boko Haram Committee, there were things we were told, which I even found alarming

I’m not saying this about Americans alone. I’m saying this about the British. I’m saying this about the French. I’m saying this about the Chinese. All these are superpowers whose tentacles are global and spread all over the world.

There’s nothing you can do about them. You put out one candle. Do you know how many candles there are? Do you know how many of them that are operating? It is the one that you know that you focus on, but there are others, many others.

Earlier on, I mean, they were talking about Chile. What happened to Allende in Chile? Now, even right now, as we are talking, Venezuela is still the target of the American deep state operations in Latin America. And if you are not careful, don’t believe that when President Donald Trump decides to target a particular country, he will only do it on the pages of the newspaper.

They are not talking about the CIA. So, if you shut down the operations of USAID, the CIA is there; the National Security Agency is there. They are all involved in this operation, destabilizing countries.

Can we get a Nigerian intelligence report that might prove this link?

I accept that as a journalist, you go after facts. As a scholar, I’m also interested in getting my hands on facts. However, the theory of rational thinking means in the absence of facts, when you are dealing with intelligence operations, you can make deductions.

And from those deductions, you can come to conclusions that even you will come to while you are dealing with facts.

I think that is the difference between you and I During this period, the northern governors were not talking only about getting development aid, they were even accusing President Jonathan of being the one, who was building up Boko Haram for his electoral purposes.

They were making that kind of allegation but at the end of the day, Jonathan got a security organisation from South Africa that almost defeated Boko Haram. But when Muhammadu Buhari came to power, he asked the South African organisation to disengage. Again, all these are facts that are in the press.