Ali Ndume is the senator representing Borno South Senatorial District and a former Senate Chief Whip. In this interview, he speaks on systemic corruption and the disagreement between Dangote Refinery and the Petroleum and Natural Gas Senior Staff Association of Nigeria (PENGASSAN), among other issues, ANAYO EZUGWU reports

What do you make of the recent disagreement between Dangote Refinery and PENGASSAN over sack of workers?

Actually, from day one, even a long time ago, I was against this kind of socalled unionism that only serves the interests of the individuals within regardless of the interests of the nation. I mean, this PENGASSAN is supposed to serve the interests of the country first. And you will notice that their profession has to do with petroleum products that affect everything. And this is Nigeria.

This is supposed to be a free country. You can’t force somebody to be in a union. What I’m saying is that Dangote is a private businessman, who established a refinery. So, you can’t come as a petroleum senior staff or whatever they call themselves and impose anything on a private individual.

There’s a common example here. We have the Academic Staff Union of Universities (ASUU), isn’t it? But staff of private universities that are getting to about 100 in this country now are not part of ASUU. There are private hospitals all over in this country. They are not part of any union. If you want to be in a union, then stay out of Dangote.

This is a very serious matter. They are trying to hold Nigeria to ransom. I’m not sure if the whole of PENGASSAN or whatever they call themselves; are not thinking about Nigeria. I’m angry because anybody who is just thinking about himself and not thinking about Nigeria is my enemy.

But they would argue that they are also thinking of Nigerians because the workers they look after are Nigerians?

I don’t know whether you are part of PENGASSAN or not. You just see them as an innocent people but they are the people just holding the leg of Nigerians. I think our population now is about 230 million, and then you have people that they don’t own the oil, they don’t own the gas, they are just the workers. How can you be acting more than the owner of the resources? It belongs to Nigeria.

The oil and gas belong to Nigerians. You will only act in the interest of Nigerians. If Dongote said he doesn’t want his workers to be in the union, so be it. How many Nigeria are working there? Those who are willing to play by the rule, let them be, he pays the piper.

You’re a lawmaker, are there laws around the rights of people to have union membership?

There is also the law; the constitution provides that you have the right as a Nigerian. I give you an example. When you set up a private university, your academic staff or non-academic or whatever, they don’t join the union.

That’s why you see people taking their children to private universities if they can afford it. You will pay more but you are guaranteed that your child will graduate at the time he or she is supposed to. ASUU is going on strike, so you don’t know when your child will graduate from school.

It’s the same thing with Dangote. And let me ask one question: Where were they when subsidy was removed? What did they do about it? Price of fuel went up to N1,000 until Dongote came on board. Where were they when the refineries stopped working? They were virtually doing nothing and were depending on imported products for Nigerians and you see queues.

Heads of the anticorruption agencies we have now, if given the right instrument, will be able to do a good job

And Dongote, I think, bided for NNPC’s refineries in Kaduna and Warri with a group of Nigerians. The same PENGASSAN sabotaged that. Then Dongote just moved aside because he’s patriotic enough, invested his own money, over $20 billion into it and some guys would come and tell him how to run the place. How is that feasible?

The Federal Government weighed in as a sort of middle-of-the-road person; what do you think is likely to be the upshot of all of this?

The best thing is for the President is to sign an executive order calling them off. He has the right. He has the big stick. General Sani Abacha did it at a time. In this case, I don’t mind if he can be a dictator because certain situations deserve very drastic measures. I mean, the price of petrol was N830 just days before the PENGASSAN strike but it went up.

It went up to N900 or so. Who is going to suffer? I mean, Nigerians are already out there. If I know how to find them, we’ll protest against them. I will lead. PENGASSAN is just a corrupt institution milking Nigerians and even now holding Nigerians by the neck.

Beyond PENGASSAN, corruption is not just at the top levels. As you have pointed out recently, it is pervasive throughout the population and culture and has been that way for decades without a pause. How big a stink do you think swirls around the issue of corruption in Nigeria?

This issue of corruption, as you know, we are Nigerian too and almost all of us or everybody, even those that are involved, are becoming worried because if someone is used to stealing and he’s not sure of securing the stolen goods, then it becomes a problem. So, even when you steal and you keep it somewhere and somebody feels comfortable to steal what you have stolen, then there is a big problem.

We must address the issue of corruption as there is this saying that if you don’t kill corruption, then corruption will kill you. First of all, I’m a politician and people are expecting much from me, so they try to compare me with others that have questionable source of wealth and expect me to do the same.

I know myself but I’m not saying that; everybody has his own way of thinking. But in this country, you know, unexplained wealth is being celebrated. Questionable wealth is being celebrated. Nigeria is 65.

I’m older than Nigeria with one year. I will be 66 in November. When we were growing up, we knew that politically exposed people are subject of scrutiny in the eye of the public. The famous Sardauna, Sir Amadu Bello, was jailed on suspicion as related to revenue of the government and so many others. I know people who went to prison because they cannot account for common local taxes.

But today, corruption has been legitimized and people don’t even think about it. They sleep with their two eyes closed or even celebrated. But when some of them travel out of Nigeria, they are declared criminals and jailed. However, when they come back home, they are celebrated.

Why doesn’t that kind of thing ever raise the hackles of the people in the National Assembly who represent the Nigerian people?

I’m not here to defend the National Assembly or to even blame it. The fight against corruption is supposed to be a collective responsibility. In fact, it’s supposed to start from the executive down to judiciary and anticorruption agencies.

We have the Independent Corrupt Practices and other related offences Commission (ICPC), we have the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), we have the Department of State Services (DSS) and we have even the police or even the judiciary itself.

And let me admit that we have very nice guys that can do their job heading these institutions, especially this time, because I personally know the chairman of the EFCC. I also know the chairman of ICPC. And I know that of DSS too. These institutions can be useful if they start addressing the issue of corruption squarely and not the just media trial they are doing now.

Their activities are supposed to be covert operations. In Britain, they have what they call Unexplained Wealth Order (UWO). They will just go and obtain an order from the court and then what you have that is above your normal income will be confiscated until you prove ownership or the source.

In the United States, what they do is that they confiscate first. And if you think that it belongs to you, you go and prove it. But in Nigeria, it’s not the case because our law has a lacuna and that is the biggest problem. In criminal offences, you are presumed guilty until there is a proof beyond reasonable doubt but the reverse is supposed to be the case.

You mentioned people who run the antigraft agencies. It’s interesting that they themselves, who are supposed to be fighting graft, are often hounded out of office with allegations of corruption trailing them…

Because that is the normal characteristics of corruption and it’s everywhere. It’s like they’re dealing with criminals, mostly politically exposed persons. Then you are talking about drug dealers. In some cases, you are dealing with criminal businessmen. They will go to any length to implicate or bribe you.

So, it’s not easy, but as I said, the heads of the anti-corruption agencies we have now, if given the right instrument, will be able to do a good job.

In most cases as I said, a few corrupt people were tried outside and some of them were even jailed. But when they come back home, they are celebrated. The opposite is the case if it is outside, and because of the shame associated with that, some accused persons even commit suicide.

Again, some of the countries are completely intolerant. Just recently, a minister in China was sentenced to death. A former U,S. lawmaker, Senator Menendez was alleged to have collected bribes from the Egyptian government. He’s now serving a jail term. I think five years in prison, including his wife.

You are a lawmaker; why don’t you push for this to become law?

To be fair to us in the National Assembly, we passed the bill that established ICPC and EFCC. And then we gave the DSS powers and I am asking the President or the government to sponsor an executive bill on unexplained wealth because corruption is not helping anyone.

If someone steals one million today, and he or she shares part of it with the people or keeps just part of it, next time, more people will be urging you to steal more. Thieves are been celebrated.

There are some of our colleagues, who because of the positions they are occupying or the influence they have, dip their hands in the treasury or connive with officials to steal our commonwealth.

Some of them cannot explain sources of their wealth. And as I said, these are people that constantly cycle around the powers that be, so they feel protected. And some of them even pay protection fee. When they steal the money they pay to keep the rabble rousers quiet.

Do they try to keep you quiet?

No, I don’t think so. It is only when you have something to hide that you are afraid. So many people used to go on television, but they can’t find anything against them.

For me, as I said, I wish if this thing would be adopted and I should be the first to be called for questioning. There are a lot of plutocrats in the system too.

But you don’t blame the plutocrats because they are going in there to profit from the government. As I said and on a serious note, Nigeria has to do something about corruption and I repeat that if we don’t kill corruption, then corruption will kill all of us.

What about the prevalent notion that if you are a politician, it doesn’t matter what shade of politics you pursue, never criticise the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC), which is your party, instead, join the party and you will be fine because all your EFCC problems will disappear. Is that a fact?

I don’t think so but I can say that whether deliberately or by default, some people will be in the system and no eyebrow is raised about allegations or accusations that have to do with them.

But suddenly when they have a brush with the government, then they try to come after him. At one time, as I was following my own case, I discovered that they have to find something to talk about it.

And at one time, it has gone off now, but it was on social media, that I am one of the richest senators. In fact, they said the 10th richest with over $500 million. And I said, if I have $1 million, I will be in London, get me an apartment or I’ll buy a house. So for me, if we’re really going to fight corruption, it should start from me being investigated.

And you’re happy to be investigated?

I will be because I’m a politically exposed person. They should check my bank account or what I have in the bank and invite me to explain how I got that balance. That is, if there is any balance anyway.