Ali Ndume is the senator representing Borno South Senatorial District at the National Assembly. In this interview monitored on Arise Television, he speaks on the coalition by opposition political parties, President Bola Tinubu’s administration, and the rift between the President and a former governor of Kaduna State, Nasir el-Rufai, among other issues, ANAYO EZUGWU writes

What is your assessment of the opposition coalition that is coming together to challenge the All Progressives Congress (APC) and President Bola Tinubu in 2027?

Let me say that this coalition that is developing outside the major political party that is our party, the APC, is to me a positive development in democracy.

There can be no effective democracy without opposition, which the supposedly major opposition has failed to provide, that is the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), Labour Party and others. Instead, they are turning the Nigerian democracy into something else.

You can see the level of decampment. That means you’re telling members of the public out there that you have no principles; you only need a platform. And even if you need a platform, it should be where your conscience will be with you.

But that is not the case and it is very dangerous for democracy itself. If there is no visible and effective opposition, that democracy is under threat of its own. I can see people, as you rightly said recently, politicians, not people, because I said last time, what I see now is that politicians are decamping, while the voters or the people, who elected them are not.

So, you see, as the President said, there is vacancy in the ship. But if you overload that ship, it is likely going to capsize. And if it capsizes, you lose everybody.

Are you saying that the coalition could be a big challenge for the APC?

It’s a big challenge when you open your ship. Even if it is a trailer that has four tires, talk less of ship. If you keep up overloading the ship because others are desperate, more especially because most of them are not coming based on principles but I know that many of them are jumping ship because of this indirect stick and carrot political approach.

That is not healthy at all. So, I’m doing what my conscience tells me at this age. I have to do that. And I feel that when you build a house and its leaking or something is happening with it, you just don’t leave the house. No, you try to fix it.

When you talk about defection; you didn’t start in the elected office as a member of the APC. The APC didn’t exist when you got into the National Assembly but you then carpet crossed from one party to another…

No. That was not it. We were the founding members of APC. Our party then was All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP) but that time I was in PDP. I was in ANPP and then I went to PDP on sabbatical because I was virtually forced out of the ANPP. That time I was in the House of Representatives.

Government has to an extent been personalised and privatised. I can tell you that I, as a senator, is not even abreast of what is going on

Then I went and PDP opened their arms and received me 100 days before.

But that’s what the APC is doing with these defectors. Why are you different from the people who are defecting now?

I’m not saying I’m different. I’m already in and I’m not saying they should not come in. Politically, I have been in the opposition. And in fact, that is my disposition. The PDP wasn’t in the opposition when I went in but I was playing opposition role in PDP. Go and check my records, I went to prison during PDP. Let me tell you, I started in 2003 in the House of Representatives.

Chief Olusegun Obasanjo was the president. And Obasanjo is like a father to me. I grew up with some of his children in Port Harcourt when he was a General Officer Commanding (GOC) commanding the army division but I was one of the frontliners against him that time.

I stand for that. Even now, if I visit Obasanjo, he treats me like his son. It is the same thing with the current president. Until recently when we became president, I used to enter Asiwaju Tinubu’s bedroom, both in Bourdillon and the Lagos House. So, he knows me very well.

And if we meet casually, he would tell me, I hear you. I’m 65 years old. I’ve been in this business for 24 years. God has done everything to me. I’ve been very fortunate. The only thing I have to do right now, and I would prefer to die doing it, is to speak the truth and do what is right.

That is what I believe. That’s why I will not jump ship. But when the ship is getting overloaded with unnecessary cargo and that ship may capsize, then I better consider the small ship.

You were the Director General of Rotimi Amaechi’s campaign organisation when he was running against President Tinubu to be the APC nominee for the 2023 elections and you did a pretty good job…

We had 315 votes, so we gave them a good fight. And after that, we thought things would go on fine because I remember vividly that Tinubu, the governor of Lagos, the current Minister of Defence, and others called me to say he wants to come and meet with myself, Amaechi, and we agreed.

At that time, I remember I was to go for hajj but Tinubu said, look, we want you to come on board and let’s work together. We agreed that we will meet after I come back but that meeting did not hold. That was how they abandoned Amaechi. So, it was not his fault.

But as you see, Amaechi worked for the President after he lost, I can tell you that. He was part of the Presidential Campaign Council (PCC) and members of our team, like Tukur Buratai and many others joined. Nasir El-Rufai was supposed to be on our side but somehow, he moved over. And I think these are part of the things that are annoying him or frustrating him.

When you say he moved; what do you mean?

He was on Amaechi’s side. Before Tinubu was nominated, he made up his mind to support Tinubu. And Tinubu, as he rightly said that he should not leave and that he should come on board. So, since then, I’ve not been that close to El-Rufai because he abandoned our group and went to support Tinubu. You know, he really mobilized and he did a lot.

Then, Tinubu asked him to join the government. But somehow, up to now, I don’t understand what happened between El-Rufai and Tinubu but that is not my business.

And I sometimes say; he did that to us, maybe, it’s payback for him. But I cannot understand, up till now, what happened. I was the Chief Whip, El-Rufai came to the chamber and we almost like asked him to take a bow and go or even to just lay out some plans. I told you, I’m not El-Rufai’s fan or friend or anything but truth must be told.

You see, that was where Mr. President got it wrong. You don’t form your government with dependence. And worst of it that the President is a kingmaker, remember?

So, when the kingmaker becomes a king, then there is a problem which he must identify himself, so that he can have people that will stand up to him and tell him the truth.

This is what is lacking in this government and I still stand on it until there is a change, the government of Tinubu is dominated by khakistocrats and kleptocrats. I don’t mind, I don’t want to even respond to Bayo Onanuga because he is a domestic staff to the President.

I am a senator for four times. How dare he calls me out, but I’m happy he called me lone wolf. I’m not frustrated as he said and why would I be frustrated? I contested to be a senator. I won four times. I won two times in the House of Representatives. Where does the frustration come?

I am a son of nobody who became somebody without knowing anybody. Ask the President. I’m not his dependent or one of his dependents. I’m his ally. But let me tell you one thing that I like and I copy from Mr. President. He can get somebody to argue on that. If we were to swap position, and I’m the president, doing the same thing that he is doing now, he would have been on the street.

He will protest even if the government belongs to him, if the wrong thing is happening. Even today, somebody from the government is saying: Why don’t you come over? I say I will not come over. I’m a senator. Under normal democratic settings, the President is supposed to lobby me on issues because he doesn’t have a vote for me.

I have a vote for him, whether in the Senate or in the general election. And you know what; I strongly believe that when it comes to power or position, it is God that will give me or will take away from me, not anybody. But it’s a responsibility on me, and as my religious say, to speak the truth even if I’m alone. And that’s almost what is happening now in APC.

They will come around and say, ah, you are trying, but you are hitting too hard. But the question I normally as k is: Did I use physical punch on anybody? And because they don’t know what to say. They’re always like Onanuga would call me a lone wolf and a frustrated person. But he is the one that is frustrated.

But it’s his job to respond to people who attack the president…

No. His job is to advise the President on information and strategy. Look at what they did recently, embarrassing Mr. President when he honoured some people.

They honoured two people who are alive posthumously. When I say there are khakistocrats there, they will insult me, but what is this error of omission, commission and stupidity? It was embarrassing on Mr. President. If I was the president, whoever is responsible for that, I will fire him and get somebody that knows the job.

We were talking about Amaechi, for example, who’s now a member of the opposition coalition and still a member of APC. Are you a member of that opposition coalition?

Going forward, I will keep on speaking out. I’m aware of the coalition and I’ve gone to several of their meetings. That is not to say that I’m a member of the coalition.

They are turning the Nigerian democracy to something else. You can see the level of decampment. That means you’re telling members of the public that you have no principles; you only need a platform

When I want to take a decision to do something, I will not hide it. I still believe that President Tinubu can fix things but failure to fix those things, might cause me to move. But for now, I don’t want to jump from frying pan to fire.

Let me tell you, I’m a loyal person and my loyalty is to the truth. I have my reason for being loyal to Amaechi. I believe he can do it. I believe he can be a better president. I believe too that Tinubu can be a successful president.

That’s why my expectation is high. But if he continues this way; then that ship, whether you load all other people or other governors, you are just endangering the APC by pushing it towards capsizing. When you overload a ship; it might spill over.

You’ve been in the National Assembly for a very long time. How do you assess the democratic evolution of the Assembly; do you think it has become more or less democratic with time?

It has become less democratic. Let me say, it’s very unfortunate. If you look at what the Senate or the National Assembly, it is supposed to be a house of deliberation, where people will deliberate on policies of government, actions of government and spending of government. These, we are not doing now. We are more of an approving institution; just giving unnecessary support to the executive.

The division between the executive, legislature, and judiciary is no longer there. Government has to an extent been personalised and privatised. I can tell you that I, as a senator, is not even abreast of what is going on but we are supposed to deliberate.

Cory Booker broke the record by speaking against Donald Trump’s policy for 25 hours, four minutes. And at one point, he was even abusing Trump. If I dare do that at the National Assembly here, the army and everybody will be waiting for me at the gate.

President Tinubu has handed over the leadership of the ECOWAS bloc to Sierra Leone. What condition has he left the subcontinent for his successor?

Honestly, that is an area the president lost it when he was the chairman of ECOWAS. There was this crisis over what happened in Niger and Bukina Faso, which was not well handled. I don’t blame him because the president has been cocooned, and those that would help would not necessarily push themselves.

President Muhammadu Buhari is there; he’s in Daura. General Ibrahim Babangida is there. President Obasanjo is there. General Abdulsalami Abubakar is there. General Yakubu Gowon is there.

All of them are respected former presidents, who would have resolved the issues, and that would have even avoided their exit from ECOWAS. Their exist has done a blow. In fact, historically, it would go down that it was during Tinubu’s chairmanship that this thing happened.

What are the implications for the security of the sub-region and Nigeria?

You can see that we are now bearing the brunt because while they are there trying to block their country and protect it, the leftover of the ISWAP, and other groups have moved into Nigeria. Look at what is happening in Benue and Plateau states. You cannot put it together. I don’t want to believe that these herdsmen have a network in Africa but the terrorists are taking advantage of it.

The brunt of it now has been felt by Benin, Togo, and Nigeria’s case where it’s already infiltrated. So, I was thinking that thePpresident would do whatever possible to make sure that he hands over a more united ECOWAS. But I don’t think he has lost it all. He should put in more effort using the other heads of state to resolve this issue because we are better off more united and more in number.

Looking at the three countries – Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso – you can see that the danger of what they did is that they seem to be doing better or they are happy with themselves, or at least, they have their own independence and dictate for themselves even to the level of planning to introduce their own currency, which the ECOWAS have been struggling to do. So, I would say that tenure was marred by this unfortunate event.